An
Epistolary Interview with the Scholar Poet A. N. Dwivedi
Dr.
Nilanshu Kumar Agarwal
A.N.Dwivedi was
Professor of English at
NKA: There is an
undercurrent of pain in your poetry. The poet in you is aggrieved to see the
‘the demon of communal riots’, ‘the slum-dwellers’, ‘the rickshawwallah’, ‘the
beggar’ and ‘the shoemaker’ etc. The expression “Torn ‘n’ tattered,/ bent ‘n’
blistered,/ naked ‘n’ wrinkled,/ they compete with one another/ in hunger ‘n’
squalor” from ‘Beggars at Sangam’ is sure to wring the drops of sympathetic tears from the eyes of the readers.
Are there certain personal factors responsible for this treatment of general
grief in your poetry? A poet universalizes his personal emotions. To be very
precise, there is sufficient personal experience behind every poetic emotion.
The tales of Sage Valmiki’s encounter with the Kraunch birds and the resultant
poetic upsurge in the great epic poet are quite common in
AND: You have correctly
discerned ‘an undercurrent of pain’ in my poetry. The moving scenes of ‘the
slum-dwellers’, ‘the rickshawwallahs’, ‘the beggars’, ‘the shoemakers’ and others
deprived of the basic necessities of
life have captured my mind inescapably and led me to write about them in my
poetry. A poet should air out the pains and sufferings of the people as best as
he can. Their conditions must be ameliorated. The political system has not been
able to deliver goods to the deprived and the destitute. The need of the hour
is to evolve a social system, on the pattern of the British welfare society, in
which they can live honourably and work profitably. The affluent and the resourceful
can do a lot in establishing such a social system. The poet, on his part, can
go on highlighting their sorrows and problems in an effective manner. This is
what I have been doing in my poetry.
As for ‘certain
personal factors’ responsible for the treatment of general grief in my poetry,
the above-noted generous intention aiming at the amelioration of the poor
people’s condition is the sole factor. My own struggles in the initial stages
of my life might have served as a stimulus in this matter. So, your statement
that ‘a poet transmutes his personal emotions into his poetry’ is partly true.
A poet can never be totally depersonalized and impersonal. Subjective emotions
surge up in his poetry now and then. T.S.Eliot’s ‘impersonal theory of poetry’
is a somewhat intriguing thing, and even in his age Dylan Thomas and Robert
Frost hold aloft the banner of subjectivity.
The sources of
my poetry are: the real social scenario, my own early struggles and the welfare
of humanity.
NKA: A number of poems by
you present ‘a criticism of life’. You are pained to see the malpractices in
the contemporary world. In ‘Mushrooming Schools’, you
declare, “Money-making is an art-/school managers know it right.” What
is the way out of these materialistic tendencies of humanity? Can Literature
fill this cultural void? Your views, please.
AND: Of course, a number
of my poems are ‘a criticism of life’, as Matthew Arnold put it. Some poems,
however, deal with the various aspects/ objects of Nature; some others with the
theme of love; and some still others with the art of Poetry. The poems
presenting ‘a criticism of life’ are largely social-cum-political ones, and they usually tend to concentrate on what you say
‘the malpractices in the contemporary world’. For instance, the prevalent evil
in the educational field, especially the school-managers’ money-making tendency,
is brought out into sharp focus in the poem “Mushrooming Schools.” Similarly,
the malpractices of the medical world are highlighted in the poem “Doctors ‘n’
Nurses”, and the habit of taking bribery is focused in the poem “Policeman.”
A possible way
out of these ‘materialistic tendencies of humanity’ is good education to all.
Literature can tell the people that these tendencies are not healthy for the
growth of a sound society and nation. And since literature teaches us good
manners and behaviour, it can definitely fill the ‘cultural void’ created by
the wide prevalence of materialistic tendencies of human beings.
NKA: Youth seems to have
lost interest in Literature. It is now replaced by pulp. Even if a person
studies literature, it is either pornographically or morally. It is read either
for titillating or for instruction purposes. Nobody seems to be really
interested in the aesthetic enjoyment of Literature. One can rarely find a
connoisseur of Literature (Sahridya
Pathak of Indian aesthetics). How can the interest of the youth be revived
in Literature during this chaotic age? Are some new forms needed to restore the feeling for
Literature in the youth? Here, cinema may be a powerful method to mould the
psyche of the
youth. Your comments, please.
AND: True, young people
of today have little interest in Literature; they are more interested in films,
television and radio serials, which provide them ample entertainment and which
free them from the botheration of reading literature.
But they need be reminded, time and again, that Literature is of permanent
value and offers perennial pleasure and embodies noble ideals. They may be
persuaded to read short literary pieces—poems, essays, one-Act plays, and short
stories—full of emotional and intellectual appeal. Theatre and cinema can
influence them most. But I do not accept the statement
that Literature is ‘now replaced by pulp’, as it negates the universal appeal
and permanent significance of the Classics of yore—great Scriptures, immortal
Epics of the East and the West, and monumental works of geniuses. I believe, literature can hardly ever be replaced by pulp.
NKA: Poems like ‘The
Cuckoo’ and ‘The Village Tailor’ have a unique triangle like formatting. What
is the significance of this style of typesetting? Is there any special reason
for it? Please elaborate.
AND: Poems like “The
Cuckoo” and “The Village Tailor” are actually picto-poems. They evoke the image
of the cuckoo and the village tailor so effectively.
Only one word is used for a line. Structurally, they look like a triangle. I
came across such poems in the works of my friend Syed Amanuddin, a prolific
Indian English author, on whom I wrote a work of criticism (New Delhi: Sterling
Publishers, 1989). Alas! Syed based in
NKA: Your poems are
filled with typical Indian sensibility. For instance the poem ‘The City of
Legends’ artistically presents the image of hoary city Hardwar thus, “As we
have it, /Sage Kapila had built/ his humble hermitage here./Offended
by the sons of Sagar,/he got terribly enraged/n burnt them into ashes./To
redeem them from the curse,/their descendant, Bhagirath,/undertook long years
of penance/ to bring down the Ganga from Heaven/n to persuade Shiva to sustain
her fall.” In a way, your poetry is soaked with Indian ethos. What are your
views about the portrayal of this Indian sensibility in an alien language? Is
English the best medium for the expression of Indian ideals? Should not Indian
culture, civilization and values be elaborated in regional Indian languages? In
the just quoted expression, you have referred to Kapila, Sagar, Bhagirath,
AND: Yes, my poems are
steeped in Indian sensibility; for example, “The City of Legends”, “Beggars at
Sangam”, “Superstitions”, and many others. Whether Indian sensibility is best
expressed in a regional Indian language or in a foreign language like English
is a matter of debate, No one can deny the importance of regional languages,
but one can write in English if one feels at home in it. In this context, I am
reminded of the famous lines of Kamala Das, a celebrated Indian English
poetess, in “An Introduction:”
Don’t write in
English, they said,
English is not
your mother-tongue. Why not leave
Me alone,
critics, friends, visiting cousins,
Every one of you. Why not let me speak in
Any language I
like? The language I speak
Becomes mine,
its distortions, its queernesses
All mine, mine
alone. It is half English, half
Indian, funny
perhaps, but it is honest,
It is as human,
as I am human, don’t
You see?
(Cited from Indian Poetry in English, ed.
A.N.Dwivedi. New
Heinemann,1980,p.124).
Thus, the language problem has
ever troubled writers and reviewers in
As for adding
‘notes’ to Indian references and allusions, to Indian proper names, I am not
averse to this. You properly mention what T.S. Eliot did at the close of The Waste Land (1922). A glossary may be
given later on. For the time being, I am concerned with the poetic expression
only, not with the question of my poems’ intelligibility to western readers.
I think, English is the language of the literate, not of the
illiterate and the semi-literate. Hence
it can’t be understood by every Tom, Dick and Harry. In the Indian context, it
is an elitist language. The poetry written in this language is meant to
entertain and elevate the literate, the educated and the elites.
There is no
dearth of English readers in
As for me, I
have written poems is Hindi too, and I have translated
some poetry and prose from Hindi into English and vice versa. However, I decided to switch over to English because it
is an international language today and also because it has been the source of
my bread and butter.
NKA: Your poems abound in
numberless pairs of words. I am mentioning some of these pairs: “this dirty ‘n’
stinking bug”, “leaders ‘n’ statesmen”, “swords ‘n’ daggers” and “cities ‘n’
towns”. The list is almost endless. How do these pairs add to the beauty of
your poetry?
AND: I make use of pairs
of words, as you mention, for the sake of emphasis as well as for adding ‘power
and pulse’ (a Whitmanian expression indeed) to my poetry. Such pairs of words
are not invariably the same in connotation, for example ‘dirty ‘n’ stinking’,
‘swords ‘n’ daggers’, even ‘cities ‘n’ towns’.
NKA: You are also a
translator. Which do you prefer more - poetry or translation? Or do you find
some affinity between the two? Please make the readers enlightened.
AND: No doubt, I am a
translator (as noted above). I feel, a poet doing
translation work infuses a poetic touch into his writing. But ‘poetry’ and
‘translation’ are two different things. In a work of translation, you are not
free and original, though you may take liberty here and there. Poetry provides
you with an immense freedom of expression. You can be authentic and original in
your treatment of the subject at hand. A poet’s eye, to quote Shakespeare, ‘in
a fine frenzy rolling/ Doth glance from earth to heaven/ And
from heaven to earth.’
NKA: You are a poet,
translator and also a critic. Are you not attempting a work of fiction in the
near future?
AND: Despite the fact
that fiction is the most popular genre
today, I am not going to write a work of fiction in the foreseeable future.
However, my fourth book of English poetry is under print in
As a
translator, I have done three books, all from Hindi into English. One
translated work, Poems of the Emergency,
was published by Writers Workshop,
As a critic, I
have written about a dozen of books and eighty papers/ essays. One critical
book of mine was brought out by
NKA: It appears your
interaction with the English classics is very deep and emotional. You have
imbibed them in your heart. That is why, while producing poetry, your
scholarship in English Literature is always at the back of your mind and heart.
The opening of ‘The Beggar’ reminds the readers of Wordsworth’s initial lines
in ‘The Solitary Reaper’. Similarly, ‘Policeman’ has a dramatic structure,
where a lover
of poetry may find something remotely similar to Donne’s song ‘Go, And Catch A
Falling Star’. Here my question is-- Has your teaching career been an asset in
your career as a poet? Please illuminate.
AND: A poet’s mind is a
peculiar amalgam of diverse sources and influences. I have imbibed impressions
of Wordsworth, Shelley and Keats among the Romantics, of Donne of an earlier
age, of Tennyson and Browning among the Victorians, of Yeats, Eliot and Frost
of the twentieth century. Shakespeare also impinges upon my consciousness
occasionally. Besides, some Indian English poets like Toru Dutt, Sarojini
Naidu, A. K. Ramanujan, Nissim Ezekiel, Kamala Das, Syed Amanuddin, etc. have
been a source of inspiration to me.
My readings in
English classics and Indian masterpieces have unquestionably enriched my
knowledge and experience, and they come to me unwittingly. I feel my long
teaching career has contributed a good deal to my poetry. If you call me ‘a
scholar-poet’, as many others—Ezekiel, Ramanujan, Shiv K. Kumar, etc.—are, I
have very little to object to it.
NKA: As a Senior teacher of English Literature, what do you think are
the major problems of English studies in
AND: In my view, some of
the major problems of English studies in India are: native bias, promotion of
regional instincts in students, over-enthusiasm about the spread of Hindi/
other regional languages, lack of proper atmosphere for English, want of
language laboratories, and the drift of the talented men and women towards the
Civil Services. I think, some, if not all, of these
problems can be solved by a balanced and an intelligent planning and
implementation of Englsih studies in
NKA: Currently, you are
posted as Professor & Chairman, Department of
English,
AND: The condition of English
studies in
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Dr.Nilanshu Kumar
Agarwal is Senior Lecturer in English at